284 – 2021 ❀️ Conf-amigues 4 Life

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In this episode, we get to talk with Baskar Rao Dandlamudi, Santosh Hari, Super Di, Faisal Abid, Sivamuthu Kumar, Todd Libby, Vincent Tang, Tessa, Jared Rhodes, and Stacy Devino. It all began with a tweet; we should do a show where we connect with some of our best conference friends and have a virtual conference… So we did, check it out ❀️

We also discuss COVID: Going to events, work-life balance, and should/can we go back to the office.

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Brian Hinton: [00:00:00] I’m Brian Hinton.

Frederick Weiss: and I’m Frederick Philip von Weiss. And thank you so much for consuming the Thunder Nerds, a conversation with the people behind the technology that love what they do

[00:00:46] Brian Hinton: [00:00:46] and do tech good.

[00:00:52] Frederick Weiss: Yeah, thanks everybody for watching the show. If you can please go to the notification bell and subscribe.

Brian Hinton: We’d like to thank Auth0, Auth0 is this season’s sponsor. They make it easy for developers to build a custom secure and standards-based login, a unified login and authentication as a service, to try them out, go to Auth0.com today. Also check out their YouTube and Twitch under the username, Auth0 with some great developer resources and streams, and last but not least is our avocado labs.

[00:01:52] Frederick Weiss: [00:01:52] Yes. Thanks Auth0! Let’s go ahead and welcome our guests. We have a, uh, a lot of guests today. We got, Baskar Rao Dandlamudi, Santosh Hari, Super Di, Faisal Abid, Sivamuthu Kumar, Todd Libby, Vincent Tang, Tessa, Jared Rhodes, and Stacy Devino. Welcome!!!

[00:02:19] Frederick Weiss: [00:02:19] So many people today. We got a full house, so Hey everybody. Thank you so much for being here. It's part of the show. Here we go. So we're doing this just for context for everybody. We did this last year, having the conflict, uh, meet you guys. And we basically had a, uh, What have you, uh, talking about how during the really hard days of COVID out, none of us could, you know, go out, go see your family and go to conferences.

[00:02:45] And, uh, these are the people that we see at the conferences. These are our good friends and we're so happy to have them. And, uh, I think Shiva started the thread and then we said, let's do it. And now we're doing year number two. So Shiva, maybe you could start to tell us what's going on. Yeah.

[00:03:01] Sivamuthu Kumar: [00:03:01] So not a problem we are seeing like, uh, for the last few years, right?

[00:03:05] Yes. Um, so last year, like, uh, I just missed, um, seeing people saved my friends in the conferences. So I just started that week. Like, Hey, I'm missing. Some of my prints are usually seen at a conference. Those people they're not under nets jumped in and we set up this, uh, meetup. Um, and we shared like, uh, what are the things we faced while we are in COVID and, uh, how that new normal life is looking for us.

[00:03:35] So it's good. It's good to see you again. Um, after like one year and things got changed, I believe, I think most of us are like vaccinated, fully vaccinated. Right? So hopefully your things will go back to normal and we will be able to see each other again. Um, so yeah, I think it cost this year. Uh, hopefully I will see most of the people.

[00:03:57] Frederick Weiss: [00:03:57] Right. Well, now that we have, uh, two shots in her arm, um, how is everybody doing? Is everybody going back out and do we, do we feel comfortable seeing people or going to events and, uh, live human to human action? Anybody?

[00:04:13] Super Di: [00:04:13] I don't know. I'm going to jump in and I know they see we'll follow where sisters.

[00:04:20] Hello everybody. I'm Diana Rodriguez. You all know me as a cotufa. That means popcorn in Venezuelans. I am from Venezuela, but anyway. Yeah. Um, but I know I'm fully vaccinated, but I'm in a risk group. I am a, um, a cancer patient and also type one diabetic. And I love seeing people who are fully vaccinated. I want Conway to hug my friends, but I don't feel comfortable being in enclosed spaces.

[00:04:54] And I know this is going to bring up a lot of, um, commentary and polemic, but there are people who are not vaccinated and these people actually cause viruses to mutate. So that's my take. I, um, I can't wait to see people, but I've been taking care of myself for a whole year. Like I don't wanna, I don't want to spoil that, but yeah, this is me.

[00:05:23] Brian Hinton: [00:05:23] Yeah, I do want to say too, that with this discussion we're vaccinating everything. Um, I w we all understand it's still going on in the rest of the world and our hearts go out to everyone who is still experiencing it, just because we're a vaccine and talking about going out. Doesn't mean we don't understand that and care about everyone else.

[00:05:40] So I just want to put that out there.

[00:05:42] Frederick Weiss: [00:05:42] Yeah, very well said. There are a lot more hard hit locations in the world. And even if we're talking about the United States, even some parts of the United States too, but, um, you know, let me ask everybody this, since we're talking about, you know, we have, we're lucky enough in, in some of our locations to get these shots, especially in the United States being possibly one of the most safest places now for COVID, uh, depending on where you get your news from, uh, how does everybody feel?

[00:06:10] Going back to an office environment, there's been a lot of studies and surveys talking about how half of the people really, really want to get back. And another half of the people don't ever want to go back and then there's people in between that want that flex work. But for me, I'm scared of the Delta.

[00:06:30] Plus, uh, variant. So, um, speaking of low-key, uh, we'll get to that, but, uh, that variant scares the crap out of me. Uh, anybody have any thoughts on that?

[00:06:40] Santosh Hari: [00:06:40] Yeah, so I, I, you know, I can kind of chime in, so, you know, I rent this, uh, news story, uh, I think it's, uh, Hillsborough county or someplace like that, where the entire it department got sick.

[00:06:52] So if I entertained any ideas of going back to any office, until then after that, I was like, heck no. So, you know, uh, the problem is not that, you know, people are, uh, many people are vaccinated. The problem is also that many people are not vaccinated. So, you know, um, you don't, you cannot tell by looking at someone.

[00:07:14] So, you know, it's, uh, it's gonna take a while for me to go to any kind of confinement.

[00:07:27] Stacy Devino: [00:07:27] Uh, yeah, I thought I might bring a couple of little points in, so, uh, I'm also gonna preface this by saying I am 28 weeks pregnant. So I am in a different category, I guess, than most people. Um, I got my shot as early as I could. And, uh, I guess that's a little different than some other people who were in similar situations, but I was like, Hm, I see that you are like a hundred times more likely to end up in the hospital.

[00:07:58] So, um, I think I need to live for my baby to live. So I'm going to go ahead and get that for myself just as a safety precaution, if nothing else. Um, And, uh, you know, personally, I think that, you know, the lives of the mothers are more important than the children, but Hey, you know, I live in a different society.

[00:08:19] Uh, not everybody shares that same opinion. It's okay. Um, but when it comes to going out, my husband is fully vaccinated. Um, we have an 18 month old kid, um, who, you know, uh, was, you know, got some residual stuff, but that's about it. Uh, and we're just not doing anything. That's crazy unreasonable, like going to a local restaurant, but, you know, a lot of places are still doing a pretty good job of not putting tables right next to each other in groups right next to each other.

[00:08:56] Um, and of course, visiting with family now comfortably, we waited until, um, even visited with family until, uh, especially older family members were all. Uh, fully vaccinated. And even then we never, uh, congregated more than like four or five people at a time, um, close family only for over a year. Uh, and I will tell you that I am fully remote.

[00:09:22] I have been fully writing for the last three years. So, um, I'm not going back to any office, uh, sorry. But my husband was an office worker prior to this and now he is like converted and sometimes like, he was just like going, well, if we want to meet, you know, everybody loves coming over to our house.

[00:09:45] Cause we got all these pinball machines and arcades and I made a lot of cookies. So they just like going, yeah, we'll just meet over it's Steven's house because they've got the space and all the fun stuff. Um, more so than there was in the office anyway. So, um, They're not even looking at ever going back. And that's actually what I hear from a lot of engineering and engineering circles companies aren't, uh, are hiring people fully remote.

[00:10:12] And to that effect, we've seen that the prices that people are able to command for their skill sets, especially in tech, have gone up. So, uh, you know, if that works out for you, Stay at home. Like it's, it's not bad. I make lunch every

[00:10:31] Frederick Weiss: [00:10:31] day. It's great. Widespread. It, it, I've seen at least for me in my location of Florida, there are a lot of companies.

[00:10:39] Um, uh, maybe anybody else here that also, uh, lives in Florida. There's a lot of companies that are demanding people in the next month to go back full time, not, you know, flex work, not part-time, but full time and amount. I'm talking about just any kind of job. I mean, I'm seeing this in a lot of different industries, you know, our industry too, where people are saying you have to put butts in seats where the conversation seemed very different just a few months ago, and it's kind of.

[00:11:08] Uh, there's some kind of duplicity going on here. I don't, I don't know what the messaging is, is, is coming from and how it's changing, but what, what, what do we say to those people that have to go back and, um, where offices possibly are not enforcing masks? They're not like saying, you know, Hey, show me your vaccination card.

[00:11:28] What do people do in that case?

[00:11:29] Brian Hinton: [00:11:29] Well, I can say we're hiring at my company and we're fully remote. So if that's what your current job says, that's my opinion on that. But what does everyone else say?

[00:11:41] Frederick Weiss: [00:11:41] Yeah. Anybody else?

[00:11:44] Faisal Abid: [00:11:44] So fully remote. It's the best because you know, I've been, I've been remote now for, you know, I mean, obviously all year, but, um, I'm able to do more, but I'm also able to do it in a vastly different frame of time.

[00:12:00] I don't have to go from like nine to five or 10 to six, you know, I do some work till like 11, then I'll go out for a walk and I'll come back to like one, I have my phone with me, so Slack's always running. But aside from that, it's up to me when I should work. And Stacy's right. You know, you can command a higher salary.

[00:12:18] Uh, you can actually get a lot more done. I do find myself doing a lot more being at home versus being in the office because of office 10, you know, so you go to work at 10 and then like 45 minutes later, your friend comes over. It's like, let's go get coffee and then you go get coffee and then you'd go ahead and get a vending machine.

[00:12:36] And then it's lunchtime. So you go on an hour lunch, right? Because all your friends are going. And so the whole thing just ends up being a waste of time. And then you got to, you know, do the whole commute. Um, and so it was just a colossal waste of time. I'd much rather just work from home and, you know, go to the office like a WeWork or something and meet for a meeting.

[00:12:58] But even so, you have a good webcam, good microphone. You can have good work from home.

[00:13:06] Frederick Weiss: [00:13:06] That's fine. What about anybody else? Thank you so much, basal. I mean, that, that makes sense. Like, um, it, it seems like there's, there's, there's really not a lot of reasons, depending on your, your role or at your company to why you need to be there.

[00:13:21] If it, uh, allows for you to work remotely, if you were a developer or designer, et cetera, et cetera. Um, but, um, I don't know what everybody else has experienced.

[00:13:32] Brian Hinton: [00:13:32] I do want to also point out in a, in a private chat that we're all talking. We're admiring Faisel's background. If you're on the audio on audio listener right now, go watch the video.

[00:13:41] His background is amazing. I don't know, like

[00:13:45] Faisal Abid: [00:13:45] working remotely.

[00:13:47] Brian Hinton: [00:13:47] I can understand that.

[00:13:50] Stacy Devino: [00:13:50] Yeah.

[00:13:51] Tessa: [00:13:51] I like, I guess I would just say that I, I feel your pain. Like it's not so easy for me to just feel like, oh, I'll go find a new job. Cause we all know how fun it is. To look for a new job and how little work that is, especially if you're already working, but, uh, yeah, just, uh, I

[00:14:08] Stacy Devino: [00:14:08] will commiserate with you.

[00:14:11] Frederick Weiss: [00:14:11] Well, does anybody have any jobs where they're asking them that you have to come back in the office full time or is it

[00:14:22] Super Di: [00:14:22] special case? Cause I worked for pitch and one of the things they said to me was that I was a special case cause I'm in North Carolina and that they are more into, um, office works, which in AWS, but given the circumstances, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm going to continue to remote.

[00:14:43] Um, and I've been working remotely since 2015. So I've seen the benefit of it. I don't think I would go to an office at all. I know only the commute, I just get distracted, you know, I'd probably just do social with people and never getting anything accomplished, you know,

[00:15:08] Brian Hinton: [00:15:08] that's me.

[00:15:11] Baskar Rao Dandlamudi: [00:15:11] Yeah. To me, I think, uh, we had seen here, uh, people, at least in Columbus region, like, uh, that is, uh, pushed towards, uh, having, uh, uh, at least once in a week, uh, to be in an office and, uh, staying remote. That's what I'm hearing from friends over here. Uh, I have been currently working remotely, uh, but, uh, thanks to my, uh, company, uh, which is allowing me to do that.

[00:15:41] Uh, but over here, uh, it is a general sentiment that at least once in a week, uh, people.

[00:15:46] Jared Rhodes: [00:15:46] Uh, expecting

[00:15:48] Baskar Rao Dandlamudi: [00:15:48] a team to be in office so that way they can have all those, uh, interactions. Uh, so

[00:15:55] Jared Rhodes: [00:15:55] that's what I'm seeing in

[00:15:57] Frederick Weiss: [00:15:57] my circle. Yeah. Wonder if a lot of these companies, maybe smaller companies are looking at the higher end enterprise.

[00:16:05] Like if they're looking to see like what, I don't know, like, uh, like Tim cook is doing, like, I, I think I read something like apple is, wants to bring everybody back full time in September or something like that in September. Isn't that far away, but it's, it's at least it's far enough away for us to see if there's any kind of, uh, uh, ramifications of this Delta plus variance going on.

[00:16:28] Um, I don't know. Well,

[00:16:30] Faisal Abid: [00:16:30] now, now they're talking about Lambda. Um, I, I wanna add one, one thing, um, to remote working. So one of the things that, one of the things I could do, because I'm, we're, we're working with multiple things. And so out of these multiple things that I do during the day, one of the things I'm part of is a consulting agency, uh, that, you know, I joined just before COVID and when COVID hits, we were trying to expand the team.

[00:16:56] But what I found was that, you know, it was very hard to hire anyone during COVID like the first one, March, April, and we're a Google cloud consulting company. So we were getting tons of clients, uh, through Google cloud. And so what I started to do was I started to look outside of North America. One of my thesis is not to pay people based on location, but pay people based on their value.

[00:17:20] And so what I started to do was find this, I tapped into this massive, amazing talent pool in Africa, specifically in Nigeria, in India, in Bangladesh, where you have. Kids I'm saying kids because they're like 21, 22 were extremely talented, but they're working for really bullshit weight, which is like $300 a month, which is garbage.

[00:17:43] And, you know, cloud consulting is very lucrative. And so what I started to do was I started to hire, uh, these kids based on what you

[00:17:51] Jared Rhodes: [00:17:51] would pay a junior intermediate

[00:17:53] Faisal Abid: [00:17:53] in Canada. And my entire idea is let's pay them really well. And because of COVID, it's, you know, we're all remote anyway. So if we're building this, we're actually forced to learn how to work remotely.

[00:18:07] And so we've been able to do that for six, seven months. Uh, and now we've gotten really good at it. And so since like October, uh, we've started bringing on foreign developers and just integrated into the team. And one of the cool things about that is the company works 24 * 7. You know, you're sleeping.

[00:18:25] A developer in Bangladesh working. And we're not, he's not having to grind anymore. Right. Because a lot of times the North American companies pay them like $200 a month and they grind for it because that's still pretty crappy wage even for them. Um, so he's not having to grind anymore. He's getting paid like 70 K, uh, and he's happy.

[00:18:46] We're happy. We're getting good quality work. And then it also builds the brand of the company where he tells his friends. And so we have this incoming talent pool of very talented people, uh, from Nigeria, Bangladesh, and even India, we just have. Coming in. So that's what COVID enabled me to do, um, where it's just look outside of North America, look outside of Europe and just tap into a whole new talent pool that we haven't been able to.

[00:19:12] It

[00:19:12] Frederick Weiss: [00:19:12] makes a lot of sense because why waste, um, why limit yourself to just the people, like, as you said, Uh, just in your general, uh, facility, right? If you're just reaching out 20 miles in a diameter and that's who you're going to hire you miss out on so much talent all around the world. It's, it's just ridiculous.

[00:19:33] And also if you're going to keep up with, with a giant office on, you know, the fourth floor of some really fancy Knights building that is great, good for you. But I mean, aren't you wasting a lot of money on that brick and mortar on those bills to keep that building running clean, et cetera, et cetera.

[00:19:51] When you could be more focused on hiring talent, for sure.

[00:19:55] Faisal Abid: [00:19:55] We were spending, uh, about $18,000 a month in office space. Right. All for what we were there. And we were on slack anyway. Right. And we were doing the same thing we're doing at home. And so, the one point I want to add about the remote work revolution, I guess, is with as much as I dislike Elon Musk, but something interesting that Elon Musk and stuff I've done through Starlink is bringing access to the rest of the world.

[00:20:23] This high-speed internet access. If that promise can be lived, you know, in six, say five years from now, uh, then you'll have a whole different way of working where you can hire someone from like the most right now, the big restriction I have when I'm hiring in parts of Africa, actually, you know, that the person's extremely talented, but the internet is very poor.

[00:20:45] So if we can't even have a basic video chat, then it gets really hard to collaborate. And so when you have an internet like Starlink, uh, being distributed across the world, I think you'll end up more and more companies will hire people. From the regions, uh, and be able to just, you know, bolt, it will be laterally right now.

[00:21:06] A lot of North American developers compete with North America, Toronto competes with charter developers to get a job, but now we'll be competing globally. Cause you'll have kids who are extremely talented, like a hundred times smarter than I am, uh, because they're learning in like the wildest conditions.

[00:21:21] So they just have grit. And I think it will be very interesting for the job market. I hope in like five years.

[00:21:27] Brian Hinton: [00:21:27] I do. I do sympathize though, with all the people that are the exact opposite of, I feel like most of the people in Nichol that need that, that person to talk to. And yeah, the hardcore extroverts.

[00:21:42] I mean, I feel like they could probably get it and like zoom calls, but, um, I feel like it's just like sipping through a straw when it's a zoom call.

[00:21:51] Frederick Weiss: [00:21:51] Well, it's, it's, it's not the same thing. Yeah, you're absolutely right. It's not the same thing for them because when an extrovert they need to recharge in a group of people, not on a call, like we're having this, doesn't do it for them.

[00:22:02] Um, I'm an introvert, that doesn't mean I'm shy. It means I recharge by myself. I need, I love people and I love to be around people, but after a little bit of time, please go away. So I can go home and lock myself in a room and watch, you know, a few episodes of Loki. And, uh, after that I will feel so much better.

[00:22:23] I

[00:22:23] Tessa: [00:22:23] means also when you're in a, in a real, like an in-person meeting, you're not just looking at everybody directly in their face and looking at your own face. Like I'm looking at my face on a huge screen right now. Like that never happens.

[00:22:37] Faisal Abid: [00:22:37] One thing I would say is the downsides of remote work, I think will be for the junior engineers who are just joining the field.

[00:22:45] I am very biased because I'm a senior. I've been in the industry in a physical aspect, but I think most of us here are seniors. But when you have a junior developer, I know as a junior developer, I found it very useful just in term two, this even deals with my, I guess like imposter syndrome to read someone's face if I screw up.

[00:23:05] Cause I've screwed up so many times, uh, early on in my career. But like having, just being able to go and talk to that person physically, you get to read the person's emotions and feel better that, you know, you're not going to get fired tomorrow because you've messed up. So I think the juniors are going to have it the worst.

[00:23:22] And I don't know what the solution is. If companies go remote.

[00:23:28] Stacy Devino: [00:23:28] I think I have a little bit of an idea here, right? Like what it really does is it puts work and the impetus on your senior, your principal, your higher level people to actually become active advocates for their junior developers. And it means putting time on your calendar, you know, two, three times a week to spend time working through stuff and taking the time to actually do like work on a PR together, do those kinds of learning sessions have structure to what they're learning and how they're actually.

[00:24:04] Um, and, and essentially you, as somebody who's higher up is kind of. A professor in a way, right. Whereas before we had this be a very informal relationship, we're adding some additional layers of formality and then we're starting to connect people. So I think there is a way to solve this. I think you just have to, uh, be willing to be more social and be more guiding and be more willing to be a true teacher, um, to those younger people.

[00:24:40] I do

[00:24:41] Brian Hinton: [00:24:41] think though, like, uh, I know a few, a few friends of mine have had issues because that's where as we all get older, Uh, we're not like there's no outlet to gain those personal relationships with friendships, so to speak, uh, other than work. So if you're not going into work and you're like, Hey, let's go out to lunch somewhere.

[00:25:03] You're Kantz cause you're in Kentucky or, or New York or wherever. So, I mean, there's, that's definitely, I feel like a big issue for a lot of people too. I don't know the solution for that beyond like, you know, streaming, zoom, cocktail hour or something. But even that it's a little weird.

[00:25:22] Frederick Weiss: [00:25:22] I had a friend today just tweet about how they were hallucinating because they.

[00:25:27] Felt so isolated. They were walking by a fire hydrant and they heard it hiss or something like that. That was me this morning. Sorry. Oh,

[00:25:40] well,

[00:25:41] Brian Hinton: [00:25:41] two of them did it. It was like a weird, it sounded like water resistant any now I looked, there was nothing and it was like this, like

[00:25:48] Frederick Weiss: [00:25:48] Brian is making my case. You know, you could go a little bit crazy if you're not seeing people. Sometimes even Brian. Exactly, there was another statistic I wanted to, uh, uh, ask you guys about which, uh, I read on a few different things.

[00:26:04] It says, um, according to, um, well, a lot of recent studies that were based on the past several, several months, that one in four women are considering downsizing their career and leaving the workforce due, due to COVID because they, a lot of times, um, it seems that women been thrusted into the role of the primary caregiver.

[00:26:28] Um, or sometimes they were the only ones to take care of the kid while, um, you know, their, their partner was working. Um, what do we, what do we think of that? Is, is that something that's, uh, gonna hold, uh, hold us back and progress.

[00:26:43] Stacy Devino: [00:26:43] I think you've already seen that there was an impact in progress to some of that, right?

[00:26:48] Like that was, that was already something that was brought up and I'll be perfectly honest. We were unable. Uh, with my kid, you know, being his age, uh, I went back to work at the end of March and it was right when everything was like super locked down and we had no childcare. And so I came back from maternity leave with no childcare and trying to reacclimate back into work.

[00:27:18] And so, you know, uh, it became, and while I was still breastfeeding and all that other stuff, so it was, it was extra hard. My husband and I, uh, passed off who had mornings who had afternoons based off of our meeting schedule. We sync our calendars, you know, um, and because of just the nature of food and things like that, like I made it, my thing, like I make lunch every day.

[00:27:47] I pretty much always do that now, um, for everybody, but then he also takes. Uh, take care of the kiddo while I'm making dinner and, you know, all that kind of thing. So, um, I think that not everyone has, uh, maybe a supportive partner because social norms, uh, in the past have been less gracious, uh, to women.

[00:28:12] And there are a lot of undo, extra, I guess, extra responsibilities that even women can put on other women, like if something's messy in the house, uh, and whatever it is, it's, it always gets like the immediate look to be never to him and that's from other people. Uh, and that's unreasonable if we start to really think about the fact that like childcare is, uh, w you had two people to make a kid, so.

[00:28:48] It seems like two, people's you shair the responsibility? Uh, a

[00:28:52] Frederick Weiss: [00:28:52] little bit, right.

[00:28:53] Brian Hinton: [00:28:53] I do also want to point out. It's not, I think, a big hit on that. Uh, I just looked it up cause I remember the statistic a little bit existing, but in October last year, 865,000 women were laid off in the workforce compared to 216,000.

[00:29:11] So it's also women who are being disproportionately impacted by, you know, layoffs, which,

[00:29:20] Faisal Abid: [00:29:20] uh, yeah.

[00:29:22] Frederick Weiss: [00:29:22] I,

[00:29:23] Brian Hinton: [00:29:23] other than being angry and sad.

[00:29:25] Frederick Weiss: [00:29:25] Yeah.

[00:29:26] Super Di: [00:29:26] What about, um, also the impact of, I mean, Coming out of the childcare situation, but the balance between work and life, because for me it happened, I've always worked remotely.

[00:29:40] But with the coronavirus and being in lockdown, it became like home was work, homework and really spent 14 hours in front of a computer. And it wasn't healthy. And then heard of cases of, of companies that were time tracking in unreasonable ways. And we're having a conversation backstage with, um, Boscov saying that flexible schedules are a thing, and I've always believed that.

[00:30:14] At the end of the day, the end result is what really matters versus you saying you have to put this many structured hours into work because some days, and I have no shame in saying this. Some days you get 2% of me because I might be exhausted because maybe I need to take more walks. Um, and some other days I'm at a hundred percent and it's grand and everything flows.

[00:30:43] And I think this is a new, um, chance to rethink how we measure success and how we think of our matrix when talking about development. Is it, yeah, the end result, what are we measuring as effectiveness? Cause, cause I can see how this

[00:31:08] Stacy Devino: [00:31:08] can be

[00:31:09] Super Di: [00:31:09] toxic if. I mean, if it's not already toxic, um, I think it's, it's, it's a conversation that we should all have

[00:31:18] Stacy Devino: [00:31:18] rhino.

[00:31:21] Faisal Abid: [00:31:21] It's totally toxic. If you're measuring by how many hours you're putting in, I agree with you. Uh, it should be by the, you should just be accountable to your delivery. If you're agreeing on your juror or a sauna that you're going to get this done by Friday, but it doesn't matter if it, if you work at 6:00 PM and the whole day you're sleeping or you just needed a day off, as long as you can get stuff done on time and be able to communicate that with the stakeholders, your manager or PM, I think that's how it should be done.

[00:31:50] Um, in, especially in a very remote, decentralized environment. I think it's unfair as always to ever measure, you know, okay. He coded like six hours grades, you know, someone coding six hours as a better developer than someone coding three hours. I think.

[00:32:09] Frederick Weiss: [00:32:09] I often see people say things like don't confuse effort with results, but on the other side of the spectrum, right, where, where they talk about, you know, you're, you're doing this and don't confuse your, your efforts for the results you do.

[00:32:25] But how about the other way around with the company don't confuse? Um, maybe if I need to take a day off as, you know, not putting in maybe the effort, but just look at my results that, that, that I have at the end of the project, as you said,

[00:32:40] Faisal Abid: [00:32:40] ultimately engineering is a knowledge base. And so for knowledge base, you can be charged by time.

[00:32:45] You have to charge by value, right? Um, because it's the value of bringing, I might know something, I mean, consulting, I've learned this actually in the past year where, you know, someone asks me a question and I CA if I can answer that question, then like 10 minutes, but doesn't mean that I should get paid $10 for.

[00:33:06] Uh, I should be paying the Mac tire project fee because I have experienced knowing that that's the value that I bring. It's not how long I spend on the project. It's how much value I get. And so knowledge and workers should always charge by value and not time. There's

[00:33:22] Vincent Tang: [00:33:22] actually a story where it's like G had like a factory, like GE like the organ company, refrigerators turbines, et cetera.

[00:33:32] And they had an issue where it's like, oh, we have a systematic failure with our mechanical systems. And they only had one person that knew how to fix it. And that guy was one of the consultants and he just gets called in and literally spends five minutes drawing like one pencil mark on the device and then walks out and then does the bill.

[00:33:55] And the bill is for 10 grand. And then the company is like, why are we, why are we getting built 10 grand for this? Okay. You literally just came in here for five minutes and just painted a pencil mark on the, on the, on the device. And then it's like, we need to, you know, itemized

[00:34:11] Frederick Weiss: [00:34:11] line item for everything they used.

[00:34:13] Vincent Tang: [00:34:13] And it just built, uh, like a pencil for $1 and then $9,999 for the experience and years that. So for him to understand that, um, I guess like value based propositions, like if you're able to get something done quicker, you shouldn't be penalized for it. Um, I've worked at companies where it's like, everything was style=”color:red”>Santosh Hari: [00:34:49] in three hours and then here's, you know, five more hours of work just because you finished telling you don't to get home early. You get to know more work.

[00:35:01] So the other thing I think we should address is, uh, the, uh, you know, all the remote work and flexible work schedules, you guys feel like, you know, the 40 hour work week is pretty much a product of the pastor. Like, you know, people are going to be kind of in not during the daytime, I'm going to be going to the dentist and you know, doing other things.

[00:35:22] And then I may catch up at night. So how do other people do that? Is that just me being

[00:35:29] Faisal Abid: [00:35:29] crazy?

[00:35:30] Vincent Tang: [00:35:30] Oh, I do that too sometimes. Like if there's like, cause like the nice part worker mode is you don't have to work like a nine to five schedule. Like we have four hours at work since we're a remote first company and everyone works in the U S and the west coast in the states.

[00:35:46] And you know, as long as you're getting your meetings and like actually doing your work and getting stuff done and making sure things are operationally efficient, as well as getting your own tasks. It doesn't really matter, you know, in the grand scheme of things, like if you get it done at 8:00 PM or if you get it done at 8:00 AM, for instance, um, as long as it's done.

[00:36:07] And I think that a lot really matters. And also another bonus of worker mode is, um, if you're not vital or like one of the main presenters of the meeting, you can just get other stuff done at the same time. Like, I'll just get my actual work done during the meeting or do house tours or, and still listen to like, and do everything else.

[00:36:25] That's necessarily the meeting though, to facilitate what we're actually working on. So it's another side

[00:36:31] Tessa: [00:36:31] bonus. I hate multitasking league. If I don't need to be at the meeting, I would rather just leave if I have to work on something else while paying attention to the meeting, like I'm not going to do either well.

[00:36:42] And I think it becomes a problem when that's an expectation. Cause I do think there are places that expect you to work when you're not actively participating in the meeting. And I think that that's really

[00:36:51] Stacy Devino: [00:36:51] unhealthy.

[00:36:55] Brian Hinton: [00:36:55] Definitely

[00:36:56] Santosh Hari: [00:36:56] act as if you are not actively participating in the meeting, uh, the chances are you should

[00:37:02] Brian Hinton: [00:37:02] not be in that meeting. Right? Right. Yeah.

[00:37:05] Frederick Weiss: [00:37:05] Yeah.

[00:37:07] Vincent Tang: [00:37:07] Well, so like, you know, when you're sending like an email blast to a group of people and you have like a to feel great, and then you have like a CC field and a PCC, well, meetings are kind of the same way where it's like, there's a two fields, right.

[00:37:21] And these are like the meet Jessica to the meeting, but you also have audience vendors, the CCS, and BCCs, um, they don't really contribute as much to the meeting, but they still need to be there to understand the grand scheme of things and sometimes just be available in case. Um, there's a question that comes up.

[00:37:38] They need a product expert related to that specific topic. Um, you could think that it's like being on call at the meeting, but you're not actually needed most of the time.

[00:37:48] Tessa: [00:37:48] Yeah, I think they should definitely try to have more meetings where it's considered normal to like come in when you're needed and then leave when you're not, instead of having to sit through the whole meeting, if like you just need to present like 10 minutes out of two hours.

[00:38:03] Brian Hinton: [00:38:03] Yeah. And back to back meetings. I am so tired of back-to-back meetings. Oh my gosh. Like 15, if you see there's a meeting, you don't have to schedule the next meeting directly after the previous one, you can have a gap. It's okay.

[00:38:19] Frederick Weiss: [00:38:19] No, no bathroom for you. Actually, I actually

[00:38:23] Vincent Tang: [00:38:23] prefers having all my meetings, like all in one day.

[00:38:26] And like, after that, like no meetings for like several days in a row. That's just me personally though. Or just like having minimal meetings after that. Like I think yesterday I had like seven hours of meetings. Like most times I actually don't feel it that much since, uh, more for lead developments and just like delegating tasks to different developers.

[00:38:48] Um, so it's actually been a Wellston cheer in India.

[00:38:52] Brian Hinton: [00:38:52] I really am in miring your cat in the background, by the

[00:38:55] Frederick Weiss: [00:38:55] way, I was just going to say that cat.

[00:39:00] Vincent Tang: [00:39:00] Oh. Since I last came on the call, um, yeah, I thought that a cat six months ago, his name was Mazzi

[00:39:06] Frederick Weiss: [00:39:06] he's stupid. Oh, it's a cute cat. Let's talk to him. What do you think?

[00:39:14] Yeah.

[00:39:16] Vincent Tang: [00:39:16] Yeah. Well, he's got that. He's got the, he's got the floor, but he doesn't want to say anything

[00:39:21] Frederick Weiss: [00:39:21] now that's cats. I tell ya. Yep.

[00:39:25] Baskar Rao Dandlamudi: [00:39:25] Because, uh, coming to meetings, uh, since it's we are all remote and everyone gets all this zoom fatigue and all that stuff. So one good thing our company does is like we do, uh, No meeting days.

[00:39:40] So one day a week is a no meeting day, uh, across the company. And, uh, we are also finding in understanding that it's not needed for everyone to switch on their camera and, uh, uh, keep the Evo, uh, Mike on drive every time. So if they are needed, there will be, we generally have all our meetings, no camera. So that way, uh, people we are just in listen mode.

[00:40:09] Uh, so I don't want to, uh, concentrate on what people need to concentrate on, like what I'm doing, how I'm there, right. And being remote, uh, people regularly, I think, uh, most of them will try to, uh, check, uh, whether a person is online or offline and it should not. When in remote, as engineering managers, uh, We should not give that much concentration on those.

[00:40:37] Like at what point of time you are looking green on your messenger or when you went away, it's not so good that I don't have any of those and like to have good managers. Uh, but I think most, um, there are companies where they will be, uh, focusing on those, like when a person is on cream or when he is, I'm right, like KB themes.

[00:41:04] If you have teams on mobile, uh, I think, uh, some few days back before, sometimes it used to show online every time. Right. Even if you are at your desk or if it is on your mobile. So that's where I think, uh, people used to tweet like, okay, teams, I'm on my mobile, I'm away from my office. Why, why are they showing it as green?

[00:41:26] Right.

[00:41:27] Frederick Weiss: [00:41:27] So I've been in meetings where people give you guff for not having your camera. Uh, where we're like, Hey, everybody has their camera on. Come on, turn your camera on. Why, why do you need to see me? Uh, is it imperative for this conversation? I get to share my screen if we need to do that, but I don't, I don't need to turn my camera on for us to have a, have a, have a meeting.

[00:41:51] Yeah. I just

[00:41:51] Faisal Abid: [00:41:51] thought

[00:41:51] Baskar Rao Dandlamudi: [00:41:51] also like, and also what

[00:41:53] Sivamuthu Kumar: [00:41:53] about like the kids noise in the background, right nowadays, like, it's, it's also part of the life, uh, example for my company, everyone know like my kid and my kid know like overall, my coworker said, so you see just we'll come to the call and just make the time to them.

[00:42:12] So it's more like a family. And also like, they, they just like, uh, um, although the kids to be paid the background, right. We should intellect stop the liveliness around our home. Since we are working from home. It's not like our office, it's still a home. Right. So we should download those kinds of. In like a meeting

[00:42:33] Faisal Abid: [00:42:33] date.

[00:42:35] Brian Hinton: [00:42:35] What I want to know about life's texture is definitely what I want to know. People like to change that, and while still on a zoom call or like to do all sorts of things that they should not be doing. It's like, it's really obvious that you're still on the call. Like I'm like super I'm like, okay, is the camera off?

[00:42:56] Okay. Let's just turn the camera up, or put something over it. Like, like how do people not like thinking about this? It's so funny. It's human

[00:43:05] Frederick Weiss: [00:43:05] nature,

[00:43:06] Brian Hinton: [00:43:06] I think. Oh yeah. I know. It just surprises me that I think that they're just not used. Yeah.

[00:43:11] Frederick Weiss: [00:43:11] If you're in

[00:43:12] Jared Rhodes: [00:43:12] meetings for eight hours a day, you become so used to the meeting that you forget the meeting.

[00:43:20] Frederick Weiss: [00:43:20] That's true.

[00:43:22] Jared Rhodes: [00:43:22] When you create

[00:43:24] Vincent Tang: [00:43:24] like steps and like any mishaps from happening, like. A camera shutter. You turn off your camera, you mute it, you disable your mic, et cetera. That way you don't accidentally leave your camera on and some embarrassing moment or leave your mic on, on some embarrassing moment, which, uh, I think I actually turned on my mic one time when I was shopping at the Hershey shore, but

[00:43:53] Super Di: [00:43:53] that was so cute.

[00:43:56] Stacy Devino: [00:43:56] He really likes that bus. I mean, he's all about that bus, but I mean the more meetings you're in, the better you get at it. And honestly like the higher up you go, the more meetings you're going to have in half my day, pretty much every day is meetings. If not more so, so, uh, and working with people, like if you count that, like just anytime you're going to be on a camera, um, invest in a quality microphone.

[00:44:27] Uh, get a boom stand, put a decent camera up there. Um, you had a little bit of shaky noise in the background with me right now because of the lighting, but eh,

[00:44:37] Brian Hinton: [00:44:37] Stacy, do you have, do you have nine microphones? I

[00:44:40] Stacy Devino: [00:44:40] do not have nine microphones.

[00:44:43] Frederick Weiss: [00:44:43] Nine headphones,

[00:44:44] Stacy Devino: [00:44:44] nine headphones, nine keyboards, actually one. Oh, I, um, I think I may have forgotten 1, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, no 10 keyboards and keyboards.

[00:44:57] Cause I forgot about my, uh, my IRS, uh, Alps, quite a click build.

[00:45:03] Frederick Weiss: [00:45:03] Are they all on the keyboards?

[00:45:05] Stacy Devino: [00:45:05] Are they all white emoji keyboards? No, they're not emoji keyboards. That's great. Although, I mean, would you, I mean, how RGB do you need your keyboard to be. This is one of my favorite ridiculous ones. Um, not the craziest thing you've seen in your life, other than it's just very, I, this is not even full brightness.

[00:45:32] It would blind you. This is like half brightness

[00:45:35] Frederick Weiss: [00:45:35] or I'm going to be blinded.

[00:45:37] Brian Hinton: [00:45:37] Yeah. Audio listeners. It's a, what's the brand too. Or

[00:45:42] Stacy Devino: [00:45:42] there's no brand. These are custom builds. Yeah.

[00:45:46] Brian Hinton: [00:45:46] Can, you can highlight where you got the, got the stuff. So people who see it. Yeah.

[00:45:51] Frederick Weiss: [00:45:51] Um,

[00:45:52] Super Di: [00:45:52] does it pew brand custom built people, blinding lights

[00:45:59] Stacy Devino: [00:45:59] and everything else

[00:46:01] Super Di: [00:46:01] is the white good hub theme on vs code or

[00:46:08] Stacy Devino: [00:46:08] like rolling through the. The RGB things at the moment I shoot, I have to look at my

[00:46:20] Yeah. So I even, uh, everything is near

[00:46:25] Frederick Weiss: [00:46:25] where you holding one,

[00:46:26] Super Di: [00:46:26] find it when you're coding.

[00:46:31] Brian Hinton: [00:46:31] Yeah. Mine's just a cute, cute Lance out of nowhere is fancy and secure. The key shrunk

[00:46:40] Stacy Devino: [00:46:40] right. Like, Hey,

[00:46:44] Brian Hinton: [00:46:44] I

[00:46:45] Frederick Weiss: [00:46:45] backed up. I like that.

[00:46:49] Stacy Devino: [00:46:49] I like my key

[00:46:50] Super Di: [00:46:50] crone.

[00:46:50] Frederick Weiss: [00:46:50] I'm showing it to hold on. Which one do you have? A little closer

[00:46:55] Super Di: [00:46:55] six and I have a custom made Paul. Oh my God. Um, for, for the escapee it's

[00:47:04] Frederick Weiss: [00:47:04] playing. Oh, I love

[00:47:07] Stacy Devino: [00:47:07] it. I gotta send you a woman who codes keycaps. Yes. I tried

[00:47:12] Super Di: [00:47:12] printing my own keycaps and I am a mess with resting printers.

[00:47:17] It's so messy that I haven't done it in like six

[00:47:21] Stacy Devino: [00:47:21] months. Yeah. So you can see like mine over there. Uh, I've got resin stuff and I, uh, you can actually look up. I have like nerd key caps I've made on Thingiverse and done a bunch of like open source profiles for everything. Okay.

[00:47:36] Super Di: [00:47:36] Ms. Guilty, this woman is guilty of, uh, me getting into 3d printing and then getting into keyboards.

[00:47:45] And I haven't bitten the beat for the

[00:47:49] Frederick Weiss: [00:47:49] headphones.

[00:47:55] I mean,

[00:47:59] Super Di: [00:47:59] You just meant you each know how to make trends, Stacy, your trendsetter for nerdy things. The first thing I'm going to do, as soon as I can travel, is go and check her keyboards with all her headphones and with our game consoles. We're pinball machines. Cause, cause yeah, I see Stacy's house as like the holy grail, the place where I want to go and play with everything.

[00:48:28] I mean, I'm going to play one, your Porsche dish with everything.

[00:48:32] Frederick Weiss: [00:48:32] Show me your hover

[00:48:33] Brian Hinton: [00:48:33] chair. Stacy just showed that to a split keyboard that she had for audio listeners. And why?

[00:48:42] So

[00:48:42] Stacy Devino: [00:48:42] you'd say it's an Iris, uh, keyboard with a rotary encoder, um, built without switches, not cherry compatible at all. So they have their own keycaps.

[00:48:53] And I also designed and printed the key cap. For the top row. And you can find that completely open source, uh, stuff on Thingiverse. So, um, anybody else who needs it? Cause there's like a couple of people who have some other ones that they've posted, but they've put all kinds of rules on it and other things like that.

[00:49:15] And I'm just like, um, if you need it, here you go. And here's a bunch of parts, including how to make space bars and all kinds of other things. So, um, you know, uh, it's not like I get paid to code and like I have a kid and I cook or anything, that kind of stuff. Right. But I have stupid, I have stupid, stupid collections of things.

[00:49:38] Like why do I have, why do I have so many fountain pens? Why do I have so many fountain pens? I don't understand me. Why do I, why do I have this?

[00:49:47] Brian Hinton: [00:49:47] Well, what if you need Ryan one doesn't have any, does anyone else? When one of them doesn't have ink put, put it back into it and grab another one

[00:49:57] Frederick Weiss: [00:49:57] because I'm a crazy person.

[00:49:59] I don't want to do that. And don't clean as you're cooking. Oh,

[00:50:06] Brian Hinton: [00:50:06] um, yeah. I tend to not, yeah, just do that. Yeah,

[00:50:12] Frederick Weiss: [00:50:12] no, no. You got to add your cooking. You got to clean as you're doing it. So you don't have a giant mess, but I liked

[00:50:18] Brian Hinton: [00:50:18] the giant mess. It's like something to look forward to after eating. Well,

[00:50:22] Frederick Weiss: [00:50:22] if you are a giant mess thoughtless, I get it.

[00:50:26] Stop judging you. I love you. And I love the giant mess that you are. And I embrace it. Frederick,

[00:50:34] Stacy Devino: [00:50:34] just explains the difference between seniors and leads and leads and principles. It's all about how you clean as you cook as you do a little something, you clean it off, you move through it once you're ready to push that thing up, you know, and present that food.

[00:50:50] The kitchen is clean. Everything's ready to go. That sir. That's the difference between.

[00:51:10] Frederick Weiss: [00:51:10] And the toys she

[00:51:12] Brian Hinton: [00:51:12] made me feel more judged.

[00:51:16] Stacy Devino: [00:51:16] I am just

[00:51:19] Frederick Weiss: [00:51:19] we're we're, we're getting close to the end of the show. So, uh, does anybody want to talk about what they got going on? Any other, uh, subjects or projects they got? I

[00:51:33] Super Di: [00:51:33] apologize, but I have to, this is so exciting. So I just leased a mobile application that can save lives.

[00:51:40]  it's for diabetic patients, it's called Scouts X dash mobile on GitHub. Um, you know, I have a sensor and this goes to a mobile dashboard called Nightscout. And for diabetic patients, they can basically connect their nice Nightscout dashboards to this application and with a little bit of help.

[00:52:03] They can actually forward location and blood sugar levels in case of emergency to their emergency contacts. In this case, if anything happens, I get a phone call because it wakes me up. Okay. People can disable it. And then if the levels are really bad, my mom will get a call informing her of my blood sugar levels, but she will also get a link to maps and can follow me in real time.

[00:52:34] And this, I know as it, has saved my life and my ideas, you know, to make it available for everybody and see how many lives we can say with this. So I'm really excited. This,

[00:52:47] Frederick Weiss: [00:52:47] I love that. Thank you for sharing that. Anybody else want to go next? I

[00:52:52] Brian Hinton: [00:52:52] have

[00:52:52] Faisal Abid: [00:52:52] an

[00:52:53] Jared Rhodes: [00:52:53] article coming out tomorrow on smash and smashing magazine.com.

[00:52:58] Frederick Weiss: [00:52:58] Nice. What is it about? It is about brevity.

[00:53:02] Jared Rhodes: [00:53:02] It is about the importance of accessibility

[00:53:08] Frederick Weiss: [00:53:08] right up your alley.

[00:53:12] Brian Hinton: [00:53:12] Can you

[00:53:12] Frederick Weiss: [00:53:12] read that

[00:53:13] Brian Hinton: [00:53:13] out loud right now? Todd, go. What's that? Can you read it all out loud right now? Uh, I

[00:53:20] Jared Rhodes: [00:53:20] just did.

[00:53:21] Brian Hinton: [00:53:21] Oh yeah. Yeah. Come here.

[00:53:27] Baskar Rao Dandlamudi: [00:53:27] Who's next? So I'm just working behind the scenes. Uh, I know that we are not, we are slowly moving towards in person events and, uh, we are trying to meet next month, uh, July, August, uh, for our conference.

[00:53:44] So that's, uh, that stuff, which I'm working out, uh, currently after a regular  conference. And I'm hoping that, uh, things will go smoothly. So we need to see

[00:53:58] Frederick Weiss: [00:53:58] like,

[00:53:59] Santosh Hari: [00:53:59] So last month. Yeah, last month, at the beginning of June, I spoke at in-person at a conference. So that was really cool. Um, it's a really weird experience, you know, um, the conference in person event in, uh, people are wearing masks and it's like a room, so practically empty, you know, it's like half people in person have people who have the virtual.

[00:54:27] So yeah. Interesting experience. Um, I think that's what we'll probably end up having for the next, uh, six to 12 months before we know. Yeah, we don't need holograms. That's true. That'd be awesome. Like a Tupac hologram would be something like that would be awesome. Oh my God. Yes. Yeah. But I'm looking forward to more in-person conferences.

[00:54:53] Uh, as you know, they were well organized.

[00:54:59] Stacy Devino: [00:54:59] Uh, I've got a talk I'm giving on July 15th to women who code mobile. Uh, you can actually look up, uh, the information directly on their Twitter. Uh, and it's all about career development. Uh, I kind of call the talk, uh, get happy, get known, get paid, uh, in that order. And it's really about kind of the real steps that you need to take as an individual to kind of get to your end game, whatever that means to you seen

[00:55:36] Vincent Tang: [00:55:36] that

[00:55:36] Brian Hinton: [00:55:36] Montse adopting

[00:55:46] Vincent Tang: [00:55:46] is actually the first episode, the first shelter I went to. I didn't know what I wanted to think that actually, um, Then when I first went over there and then this is when I was between jobs. I got laid off from my previous job. And I was like, well, I got a lot of free time. I'll actually go cat searching now, soul searching for a bit.

[00:56:07] And once like five or six different shelters. And they kind of got a feel for different cats. And I'm like, oh God, I have to start a new job like next week. So, um, I ended up postponing that and I found out that my entire team had cats. This was kind of telling me that I should probably get a cat. And, uh, Matsu was the first cat I saw at the shelter.

[00:56:29] And I was like, if he's still there, this is the cat I wanna adopt. And sure enough, he was still there three weeks later. So I adopted him and have been happy ever since. Yeah, he eats a lot though. I'm like, anytime he wants to complain about something or. Like wanting attention. He just yells at me. Like sometimes like, it's like, even when I'm in a zoom call, like a lot of times we'll just Meow like a lot, but I'm kind of surprised he hasn't done that this time, but yeah.

[00:57:00] Uh, other things that are new, I actually just did my first dance performance. I'm on a dance performance team and I learned how to do like land style, the insane a couple of months.

[00:57:17] Frederick Weiss: [00:57:17] Yeah, let's see, I saw you doing this on Facebook and you're really good. All right.

[00:57:26] Don't give us

[00:57:30] video of me.

[00:57:34] Grab

[00:57:34] Jared Rhodes: [00:57:34] the cat,

[00:57:38] Frederick Weiss: [00:57:38] put up Brian dance. I'm not wearing cancer.

[00:57:47] Faisal Abid: [00:57:47] Although I did learn.

[00:57:50] Vincent Tang: [00:57:50] I did learn how to play guitar though and sing at the same.

[00:57:54] Frederick Weiss: [00:57:54] You're

[00:57:54] Brian Hinton: [00:57:54] just digging a hole for yourself. Now he's going to ask you to play

[00:57:57] Stacy Devino: [00:57:57] guitar.

[00:58:00] Frederick Weiss: [00:58:00] Okay. Fine.

[00:58:04] Vincent Tang: [00:58:04] I'm actually wearing pants by the

[00:58:05] Frederick Weiss: [00:58:05] way.

[00:58:06] Brian Hinton: [00:58:06] He lied.

[00:58:10] Jared Rhodes: [00:58:10] He wasn't like that.

[00:58:12] Brian Hinton: [00:58:12] heart and polka dot, uh, boxers

[00:58:15] Tessa: [00:58:15] says, pass might be brighter than Stacy's keyboard.

[00:58:18] That's

[00:58:18] Vincent Tang: [00:58:18] true neon. Sorry. You know,

[00:58:28] Frederick Weiss: [00:58:28] I need to get my

[00:58:46] hotel, California?

[00:58:51] Vincent Tang: [00:58:51] stairway

[00:58:51] Frederick Weiss: [00:58:51] to heaven. We're all just putting out songs. You play what you want, buddy. I'm going to do

[00:58:56] Vincent Tang: [00:58:56] the Beatles, let it be. And every time I do this in front of an audience, it's awkward. And this year's terrible. That actually did it on.

[00:59:10] Tessa: [00:59:10] We had to play in front of

[00:59:11] Vincent Tang: [00:59:11] you, right?

[00:59:12] Yeah.

[00:59:35] Self in times of stress.

[00:59:43] Frederick Weiss: [00:59:43] Okay.

[01:00:12] Brian Hinton: [01:00:12] Oh,

[01:00:13] Vincent Tang: [01:00:13] that is

[01:00:16] Frederick Weiss: [01:00:16] that it

[01:00:25] Jared Rhodes: [01:00:25] was, um,

[01:00:34] Faisal Abid: [01:00:34] can we do the whole thing?

[01:00:42] Frederick Weiss: [01:00:42] How appropriate that song is and the serendipity of the situation, because, uh, words of wisdom. And that's what we have provided here, I believe through the last hour. And we'll let it be at that because we are at the end of the show unless anybody else has any final words before we sign off? Uh, well,

[01:01:02] Stacy Devino: [01:01:02] I

[01:01:02] Tessa: [01:01:02] don't have anything new to pitch, but if you're looking for a podcast about view or front end development, check out, enjoy the view,

[01:01:09] Frederick Weiss: [01:01:09] That's enjoy the view.io IO.

[01:01:13] Thank you. Anybody else?

[01:01:15] Vincent Tang: [01:01:15] Oh,  I have a podcast

[01:01:17] Vincent Tang: [01:01:17] too. It's a restaurant theme of podcasts . My best buddy talked about pretty much all tested development and how it got started into front end development and back in development, as well as civic topics on, for instance, how a TV device works or.

[01:01:35] If you're versed in DevOps, we've got something for everybody. It's more like for people that are kind of in the mindset of trying to learn new things. So, um, I'll put them in the

[01:01:45] Frederick Weiss: [01:01:45] show notes somewhere. I, I, we got a link. Don't worry about it. I, I listen to you. Thanks so much.

[01:01:53] Brian Hinton: [01:01:53] Cool. Thank you. Hey everyone.

[01:01:55] Thanks for joining us. It's always great to talk with you all. It's a joy.

[01:02:00] Frederick Weiss: [01:02:00] Oh yeah. And before we jumped out, I just wanted to, if anybody else had a chance or wanted to say anything at the end here,

[01:02:07] Jared Rhodes: [01:02:07] I got a podcast to

[01:02:11] Frederick Weiss: [01:02:11] what you got.

[01:02:13] Jared Rhodes: [01:02:13] It's called the front end nerdery podcast. It's also on YouTube and it's also on your, uh, your favorite podcast platform,

[01:02:22] Faisal Abid: [01:02:22] device of choice.

[01:02:24] Frederick Weiss: [01:02:24] Nice. Anybody else? Uh,

[01:02:29] Jared Rhodes: [01:02:29] we're going to be having the Atlanta code camp this year, um, on October 9th. So if anyone's looking to speak or sponsor a, will we have any Atlanta code camp? So Atlanta code, camp.com.

[01:02:42] Frederick Weiss: [01:02:42] Thank you very much, Jared. Hey, you know what? Speaking of friends and friends, the code bass card, you got on anything to promote,

[01:02:49] Faisal Abid: [01:02:49] um, the apart

[01:02:52] Baskar Rao Dandlamudi: [01:02:52] from our conference, uh, which is the Cooper friends.

[01:02:56] Uh, so that's what we do. And, uh, we do monthly meetups and a annual

[01:03:03] conference.

[01:03:04] Frederick Weiss: [01:03:04] Nice. Anyone else? Anyone else eats more lobster, eats more, less. I think that is the perfect word to exit this show with. Remember everybody eating more lobster? Watch the thunder nerds. Thank every one of you for joining us. Um, it's been a pleasure and, uh, I hope you all join us again next year when we do this, my deepest of thanks.

[01:03:30] Thank you so much, Brian. Do you have anything? Nope.

[01:03:34] Brian Hinton: [01:03:34] Under nerds, subscribe.

[01:03:35] Faisal Abid: [01:03:35] Subscribe.

[01:03:37] Frederick Weiss: [01:03:37] Thanks everybody. Take care. Really appreciate it. We'll see you next time.

If you have questions, or suggestions to modify the transcript, PLEASE let us know at connect@thundernerds.io

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